Hogg vs Warne via Whateley

 

By LES EVERETT

 

Discussion on ABC TV’s Offsiders (Sunday 19 February) turned to Shane Warne’s attempt to make a return to the Australian cricket team.

The talk was sparked by a story by Gideon Haigh in the nice-looking new website The Global Mail…

http://www.theglobalmail.org/feature/shane-warnes-never-ending-glory-part-1/67/

Panellist Gerard Whateley suggested a return via the Australian 20/20 team could have been considered. After all another veteran spin bowler, Brad Hogg, had been chosen.

Whateley asked rhetorically whether Warne had out-bowled Hogg in the recent Big Bash series and concluded that he had.

Later in the discussion Whateley repeated that Warne had out-bowled Hogg in the Big Bash.

The Big Bash is neither here nor there really but a question popped into my head. Did Warne really out-bowl Hogg? I didn’t think so.

Whateley usually does his homework… lots of it. But I decided to check.

Here we go.

Hogg took 13 wickets at an average of 14.69 in the Big Bash.

Warne took seven wickets at 26.

Hogg’s strike rate (balls per wicket) was 15.7.

Warne’s strike rate was 23.1.

Hogg’s economy rate (runs per over) was 5.62.

Warne’s economy rate was 6.74.

Hogg’s best bowling figures were 3/20.

Warne’s best bowling figures were 2/23.

Hogg was fourth in the competition on the wicket takers list, third in economy rate and his 3/20 was the 10th best bowling analysis. Warne made the top 10 in no categories.

I reckon Brad Hogg earned his spot in the Australian 20/20 team.

 

About Les Everett

A Footy Almanac veteran, Les Everett is the author of Gravel Rash: 100 Years of Goldfields Football and Fremantle Dockers: An Illustrated History. He is the footyalmanac.com WAFL correspondent and uses the money he makes from that role to pay for his expensive websites australianrules.com.au and talkingfrankie.com and fund the extravagant Vin Maskell at scoreboardpressure.com

Comments

  1. John Butler says:

    Gee Les, if you insist in dealing in facts you’ll really spoil the party. :)

  2. Les, you should realise that the ABC TV show ‘Offsiders’ is garbage and most of their pretentious commentators are ignorant buffoons. I stopped watching this show about two years ago. As you point out Gerard Whateley does not have a good knowledge of sport and his attitude is supercilious and arrogant . The ABC radio and TV coverage of sport continues to deteriorate and most of their content is trivial and celebrity nonsense.
    You might find a couple of articles on the ESPN cricinfo website more interesting: Ashley Mallett’s article on the Charles Dicken’s connection with cricket in the 1860’s and Sidharth Monga’s article on Jason Gillespie’s old man.

  3. I will try to lift my game on Offsiders Mark. Can’t have punters disappointed on a weekly basis.

    On a slightly different note, did you find that when you typed Mallett and Dickens in the same sentence your keyboard melted?

  4. I like Offsiders – except when that bloke with all the hair is on it. And I enjoy listening to Gerard Whateley.
    I think nobody challenged him on Sunday’s show about the point in question because nobody cared.

  5. David Downer says:

    I concur, Whateley’s knowledge of sport is just horrendous.

    He is clearly on TV for his good looks.

  6. Lift your game Harms.

  7. :-)

    I seldom see the word “buffoon” used but it gets a regular airing on this website.

  8. Mark Doyle says:

    John, I have not seen you on ‘Offsiders’, but I have not seen it for a while. What is your role? I understand that you and Paul Daffey are most interested in community and country sport and the ABC ‘Offsiders’ covers only professional sport. My memory of this program is a poor ill-informed sports presenter in Barry Cassidy and ill-informed sports opinion from people such as Gerard Whateley, Roy Masters (his brother Chris is a much better journalist), Caroline Wilson, Jacqueline Magnay and some woman who appeared on ‘The Fat’ a few years ago. Gideon Haigh was an occasional commentator and he raised the standard of the program. Barry Cassidy also presented a current affairs/political program called ‘Insiders’ which was about giving intolerant fascists Piers Ackerman and Andrew Bolt a platform for their offensive opinions..

  9. What about that bloke who wears skivvies on the telly ?
    Not good enough !

  10. Les,
    LIke it or not, Hogg was one of the true success stories of the BBL.
    Much of his success is predicated on the fact that his wrong-un remains very difficult to pick. Therefore, most batsmen play him with trepidation because they do not want to end up looking foolish.
    Good luck to him, I say. Hopefully, his selection is a precedent for picking the national T20 team on form.
    Despite the fact that B Hodge must still be a little perplexed

  11. Peter Baulderstone says:

    Les – good research. You conclusively demonstrated that Hogg was superior to Warne on all the dimensions of bowling performance in T20 this year. Gerard Whateley got it wrong – but I suspect it was just a case of going with the conventional wisdom without thinking through all the evidence.
    Hey we all make mistakes, and sometimes our opinions are unsupported by evidence when we look more deeply.
    Gerard and Tim Lane are my favourite sports broadcasters in Australia by a mile. Commetti is entertaining and a good describer of the play, but he rarely has any insightful comments. Gideon Haigh is the best writer (with JTH and several almanackers close behind).
    I like that Gerard is across so many sports and is always lively, opinionated and thoughtful. Sort of like Bruce 20 years ago before he became a self charicature.
    Mark – you have strong opinions about many things. Most of which I disagree with. Enough said.
    The ABC is like democracy – flawed but better than all the alternatives by a long shot.

  12. Peter Flynn says:

    I didn’t agree with G Whateley re Hogg v Warne.

    Both bowled well in a comp of dubious standard. Smokie sums up Hogg’s virtues nicely.

    I happen to think all the panellists on Offsiders are informed.

  13. FIRST of all what are people doing out of their cots and in front of a goggle box on Sundays, at 10.30 or 11 a.m. for God’s sake ?? Are you suffering from insomnia?

    Maybe there’s a screen close by the cot or the programme can be watched on another type of appliance.

    I can plead not guilty to ever watching an episode. Or any TV for that matter before or round about sundown. Sunday late mornings are set aside for The Age (and a takeaway mug-sized flat white). Under the sheet. In bed. Until around 12.30 pm, or so.

    The no daytime TeeV rule is eschewed only when the SuperBowl is on and then I drag myself from under the sheets for an early Feb. four-hour marathon.

    Blind co-host of mine on a radio show (yes, he needs a panellist behind the jump) has often remarked to me when I have forwarded Knackery material to him that the style is “extremely self-conscious”. I think he has also occasionally mentioned “self-righteous” but it’s the first-named to which he returns.
    Does that strike a chord with you, Mark in relation to the Sunday morning prognostications?

    My mate has software which transforms the written word into a spoken form which he listens to, via earpieces..

    @Peter B.: yep, Tim Lane is my favourite by the space between Black Caviar and her rivals. Gerard as per other pieces on this site suffers from the long, drawly final consonants in sentences. And Tim is tops for my blind radio friend as well. So much so, that he has switched from the ABC to 3AW where Tim reigns on Sat. afternoons. (He can’t stand little, Drewselly Morphett.)
    For blind folk, radio is a vital means of keeping in touch.

    Tim, BTW, dropped a notch or 2 when he pronounced on Ch. 10 one evening that Geelong’s reign at the top was closing, and maybe finished. Errrrr, not quite, Timbo !!

    On cricket, Gideon H. best suited to take over the incisive comments role left vacant by the demise of Roebers Roebuck.

  14. Mark Doyle – Piers Akerman and Andrew Bolt should be shot. Simply put them up against a wall and blow their brains out. Bloody conservatives. Who do they think they are? When they’re gone we can get back to being a lovely tolerant society again.

  15. I have just heard a rumour that due to the lack of intelligent comment and commentators ‘Offsiders’ is about to be axed.

    Apparently it is to be replaced by an Australian version of Grumpy Old Men. The producers have come across an extraordinary unique, sad but none the less entertaining and humorous classic ‘Grumpy’ from down Ocean Grove way to underpinn the program.

    He is as hard to get a mainstream interview with as Gina Rinehart but gets the message out through favourite social mediums he is addicted to.

    Watch this spot.

  16. Mark D.,

    good to see you have an environmental ethos like yours truely.

    You seem to be recycling that word ‘garbage’ regularly.

    Keep up the good work green comerade.

  17. Peter B.

    I agreed with all you said.

    Agreeing with a WC Evil fan worries me so I/m rethinking my position on everything.

  18. Peter Baulderstone says:

    Change a life time of well developed social and political views OR come over to the Blue and Gold???
    Seems an easy choice to me Les.
    I see your boys fainted at the first whiff of grapeshot on Sunday night.
    Plus’ ce’ change…….

  19. I would be sounding too much like Ricky Ponting at a press conference if I were to push Offsiders.

    This is what I’ll say: the show is a bit of this and a bit of that. It offers results, an element which has grown over the life (6 or 7 years) of the show. More importantly, it offers comment on issues. It offers some comment on the media coverage of issues. Barrie and G. Whateley are very much inside the bubble of their respective fields day-to-day and that sensibility is the basis of editorial direction and analysis for them. However they both have the ability to stand outside that bubble as well. Caroline Wilson is even more on the inside of football, a role she has played for a long time. Gideon is Gideon. Francis, Ange, John Stanley choose to respond their own way and have their interests and perspectives. Roy is a classic and I enjoy being on the panel with him: don’t underestimate his experience and his reach and the origins of his understanding.

    I try to stand outside the bubble of sport and understand and analyse from a social, cultural, historical perspective, often using the guise of the fan. I am interested in the notion of meaning, but use of words like meaning, paradigm, etc can sometimes precipitate a quick move to the next topic.

    The audience is a broad church.

    I agree that if we are offering opinions which are nothing more than personal positions then the show suffers. I think the better analysis (and TV) comes out of the discussion of the various parameters to be considered in forming an opinion, and hence the thinking is clearer. I agree that the thinking is sometimes unstructured, and only one of numerous parameters receives the focus, but this is more due to the galloping nature of a half hour show. Having spent much time with my colleagues, given time, their conversation on these matters is informed and illuminating. An hour-long show would be good.

    There is also the matter of style. Gerard has styled himself as a professional analyst and opinion-maker. This has served him well. He has developed authority across a wide audience, but like anyone, he can’t please the entire world.

    I have spent my years trying to be a professional luncher, conversationalist, Geelong-supporter, golfer, and sporting-fixture attender. I earn a modest living in my chosen profession.

    I don’t take myself too seriously, and my view is just that, my view, and one of many. My old Queensland mates who had scant regard for my opinions in the pub – which provided a good grounding for my work in the media – still don’t listen to me and will say, “You’re just saying the same things you used to say at the pub.”

    But I will fire up occasionally. Hence I will ponder cricket for example, as I did 12 months ago, and try to explain how I think the game is changing, why, and what the implications are.

    The footyalmanac site is an even broader church. I hope it is small l liberal. I don’t see the pieces as self-indulgent. I would label them differently. I see them as classic examples of sports existentialism where enthusiasts whose lives are on the edge of sport write about sport from the perspective they best know: their own. The assumptions and understandings of these pieces are not often explained, but neither are the assumptions and understandings upon which E.B. White based Charlotte’s Webb or Max (the bloke with the world’s loudest cover drive) brings to the stories he tells in the public bar of the North Fitzroy Arms.

    I think the footyalmanac site has a future.

  20. Well said JTH.

    Obviously the audience (and ex audience) is a broad church as apparent in comments from those who are apparently true believers of the survival show experiment and thus, through conditioning, feel cheated and can’t cope if someone is not voted off at the end of each episode.

    The beauty of this wide brown democracy is that many tastes are catered for on electronic media. Bless’m all.

    Too much Outsiders can never be enough.

  21. Who can forget that day when a certain Victorian ex-premier looked a skivvied Offsiders panellist in the eye and stated that Geelong (vis a vis Hawthorn) were somewhat lacking in the ‘gumption’ (i.e. guts) department. The comment was certainly noted down Kardinia Park way.

    Put me down as an Offsiders and Footy Almanac fan. I always feel better informed after spending some time with them. This doesn’t always happen at the pub, where I sometimes come out feeling that I know less. Wonder why?

  22. Lordy, lordy, what happened to the discussion about Hoggy and Warnie?

  23. Andrew Else says:

    Just watched today’s Offsiders on the IQ

    I can’t believe JTH didn’t bring up ’97 when the McIntyre final 8 was being discussed. I guess 3 flags eases such pain

  24. Skip of Skipton says:

    I don’t want to defame or slander anyone, so I won’t mention the ’97 finals series.
    3 flags doesn’t ease the pain of that. Every time the Adelaide Crows fail or fall short of the mark is enjoyable. Maybe having Sando and Dasher and a young local kid, Brad Crouch, over there will heal the pain and let me get back to focusing hatred upon Carlton and Collingwood.

  25. never mention 1997.
    PeterB…with you re Tim (esp cricket) and Gerard.

  26. and Hogg bowled better in that comp but Warne could still kill ’em in Tests – tired and irrelevant story.

  27. John, Interesting comments about yourself and Offsiders. We can agree to disagree about Offsiders. I think that most Australian journalists, especially political and sports journalists, have developed a culture of celebrity and most of their spoken and written work is either ill-informed or speculative meaningless comment. Most sports commentators ask questions which are either ‘dorothy dixers’ or loaded to get a cheap headline. There are very few good sports interviewers of the calibre of interviewers such as Phillip Adams, Andrew Ford and Ramona Koval. These people are excellent interviewers because they have empathy with their interviewee; they have good knowledge, are well researched, have good thought provoking questions and are good listeners.
    I might watch Offsiders again sometime to see what Angela Pippos (I presume this is the Ange that you refer to) is like; she used to be a good sports reporter on ABC TV.

  28. Mark – your staunch opinion on a show “you haven’t seen for a while” reminds me of a bloke who bailed me up last week. He wanted to know why I (editor of Dairy News) wanted to tear down the entire industry – his assumption was based on the views of the people (calling for change) that I put on the front page. When I asked him whether he read the articles inside he told me: “No I didn’t, I saw the front page and put the bloody paper straight in the bin!” I tried not to laugh and he turned out to be not a bad bloke.
    I hope to have a beer with you at an Alamanac lunch down the track.

    For the record, I set the digital recorder for Offsiders each week. the first episode back I actually couldn’t watch past the first two minutes – Gerard and Caroline were cutting each other off with their opinions. Yesterday’s episode was much better.

  29. Richard Naco says:

    I don’t give a rat’s patootie about Warne, Hogg, or any other summer worshipping animals (regardless of whether their vision is 20-20 or less than).

    I do, however, really enjoy the civility and courtesy of the Offsiders, and several of the panel would be welcome gate crashers at any sporting function I attend this year (which will be AFL in Sydney & Canberra, AFL on the Gold Coast, and AFL at the G the weekend after the Gold Coast during the mid year school hols.

    Those whose opines are different have my full love and respect (and if that don’t scare youse, nuffink will).

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